Episode 39 - Cole Painter, New Primitive
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Prefab Review
Hi, my name is Michael Frank, and this is the Prefab Pod, presented by Prefab Review, where we interview leading people and companies in the prefab housing industry. Today, we're speaking with Cole Painter of New Primitive.
Cole, how's it going? Thanks for joining us.
New Primitive
It's going good. Thanks for having me on.
Prefab Review
Yeah, we're excited to have you. You're the first non-house ADU provider, so we're definitely excited.
Just to kick things off, do you want to talk a little bit about what New Primitive does?
New Primitive
So we build luxury, outdoor, sauna and cold plunge setups. And we build these here in a manufacturing facility here in West Jordan, Utah, and we ship them all across the states.
Prefab Review
Do you have any, I think I mentioned this to you before, I can share your screen too. Do you have any photos or videos you want to show? Just kind of walk us through them.
New Primitive
Yeah, it's kind of niche. So when you’re first saying it, it doesn't really give it justice. Can you see that?
Prefab Review
Yeah, now we see your Instagram.
New Primitive
Okay, cool. So yeah, here's our Instagram page. We do three different types of sauna and cold plunge setups.
They're all modular so that we can meet the space requirements that the client needs and the intention for the space. So you can see here, this is our NP 1, our all-in-one sauna and cold plunge combo. So it's a two room setup and you can rotate through hot and cold.
This is perfect for gathering spaces. A lot of residential clients will sit this next to their pool or commercial projects will put them as just kind of a centerpiece that people can come to and reserve and have that be part of their experience.
Prefab Review
How big, I'm assuming the cold plunges are a one person thing, but how large are the saunas?
New Primitive
Yeah, it's a very spacious sauna. So this is a six to eight person sauna, true size. Like a lot of people will say their saunas fit four to six people, but they really only fit like three.
So these are really spacious saunas. I'll get a picture of the inside. These are the heaters we use.
Prefab Review
And is the heater, is it electric? Is it propane?
New Primitive
It's electric and it's wifi controlled. So you can turn it on remotely and have it set on a heat up period. And yeah, you can pour water on the rocks.
It's a traditional dry sauna heater. So you're getting up to temperatures from 175 to 212 degrees in our saunas. That's where the research recommends it should be for all the benefits.
And then, yeah, this is our 212 sauna. It's our mid-size. So it's basically the NP 1 cut in half without the changing room and the cold plunge inside.
Prefab Review
Got it. So this is just standalone sauna?
New Primitive
Yep.
Prefab Review
What are the footprints of these things?
New Primitive
So the NP 1 is 16 foot by 8 foot deep.
Prefab Review
Interesting. That 8x16 is the bigger one.
And then the standalone one is 10x8 feet. Okay. And from a permitting perspective, do these require permits in most jurisdictions? I assume for electrical, they probably do, right?
New Primitive
They don't. So the nice part about our saunas is they're all less than 200 square feet. So no permitting is required.
And I guess in some power, in some cities, if you had to upgrade your power panel or whatnot, that might be something you have to get permitted, but all of these require a 220 volt.
Prefab Review
Okay, Interesting. Cool.
And then in terms of the cold plunge, there's obviously plumbing for the cold plunge, or how does that work?
New Primitive
It's just your standard hose connect.
Prefab Review
Okay.
New Primitive
We can do a direct plumbing connection. Our cold plunges are just a 110 volt that you can plug into the wall and just have a full, self-regulated chilling system in there.
Prefab Review
Got it. Cool. And what are the kinds of situations people are buying these in? Is this like urban infills, ski houses, like kind of like vibey Airbnbs? Where are you seeing this happen?
New Primitive
Yeah, we've done a little bit of all of them. So we get a lot of residential projects, but one emerging market that we've seen a lot of traction in is extended stays, Airbnbs, unique boutique resorts, ski homes, places that are outside that people are going to go out and reconnect. That's kind of the whole mission for New Primitive is to enhance the experience in the outdoors and be able to get people inside of a hot sauna and be able to just allow them to reconnect with themselves and the nature around them.
Prefab Review
And what do these cost?
New Primitive
Yeah, so our pricing ranges from $16,500 to $48,000 for our NP 1.
Prefab Review
And that's coming out of your factory, that's on the ground at the site? What does that encompass?
New Primitive
That's the build of the unit.
Prefab Review
Okay.
New Primitive
And then shipping and installation is all kind of specific to the client. But one thing that makes us unique is we will walk with you throughout that planning process to help it get installed on time and on budget.
Prefab Review
And what do you see in general as kind of the shipping plus crane plus foundation sort of cost for something like this?
New Primitive
Yeah, I would say I see it range between $4,000 and $5,000.
Prefab Review
Oh wow, okay, that's actually nice. The base I'm looking at is like for full houses. Again, we are involved in a ton of modular builds. You actually see that the mods are about 50% of the cost of the overall project. In this case, it sounds like your part is like 90% plus of the full project on the more expensive one. So, that's interesting. And it looks like these are mostly installed via crane?
New Primitive
Yep, our preferred method is crane. Some of our smaller units, you can use a telescopic forklift.
Prefab Review
Yeah, it makes sense.
New Primitive
And yeah, here's a couple of sites just to give you an idea of where people are placing them. This is at a cabin in the mountains.
Prefab Review
And it looks like, what's on the exterior? Is that kind of like a wood or a hardy board?
New Primitive
It's a board and batten. So, cement board, it's very durable. That's how we've approached our builds. We've actually crafted these around being able to be out in the harsh elements and last a long time with low maintenance.
Like I think when a lot of Airbnb-ers or extended stays, they're looking at what amenities to add to the experience. I think first and foremost, if you talk to anyone that owns a hot tub, they know how big of a headache those can be. And so a lot of people are drawn to our saunas just because they're super low maintenance and they're meant to last you for forever.
Prefab Review
Makes sense. As a hot tub owner at a ski house, I can concur with that experience. Cool. All right. That makes total sense. So walk me through it. So I say, “hey, I want to go put this at one of my houses or put this on my Airbnb.” What are the next steps with you all from the kind of, okay, I'm interested in buying this to when it's in my backyard?
New Primitive
So you'll book a call with us. You'll place a deposit and when you're ready to move forward, we'll get it put into our production line. Typically our turnaround time is eight weeks and then we'll ship it out to you and help with the installation.
We can work with your general contractors. We can work with whoever's kind of heading up your projects to make sure it's done, like I said, on budget and effectively.
Prefab Review
Got it. Do you have any networking or is it mostly people find their own local contractors for the contracting? Because again, it's not a very big kind of local site work contract. And depending on where you are, it can actually be hard to find general contractors to do a $4,000 project.
New Primitive
If it's a residential place or justan Airbnb, a lot of times, we'll assist with that install.
Prefab Review
That makes sense. How'd you get into this?
New Primitive
I started out with the vision to create an outdoor wellness retreat and build luxury tiny homes out in the middle of Utah and just create this whole retreat experience. And then I ended up pivoting and it turned into providing that retreat experience at people’s homes.
At the time, this was during COVID when there was a lot of chaos going on, I think there was a big step back as far as connection goes with people and ourselves. And so this was kind of this tool, the most powerful tool that I thought I could provide to people that they could just go be in quiet and heal. I mean, that's what sauna and cold plungers do.
And so that's what really motivated me. It started with a mission and then I've just filled in the details from there.
Prefab Review
All right. So in terms of the details, right, you don't own a factory? Or do you use a third-party factory or is it your own factory?
New Primitive
Yeah, we were partnered with a tiny home factory.
Prefab Review
Got it, okay. So you were like, I want to do this and then your product, did you meet with a couple of factories about, “hey, here's what we want to produce”? How did that work in terms of like, “I want to do this” to like, the beautiful solution you have now?
New Primitive
Yeah, it was quite the journey. I started from nothing. I found a builder, just a random mom-and-pop builder out of his shop and I gave him a picture of what I wanted to build and he started building it and I started selling that picture to influencers and people that I thought would be interested and started to get some sales.
It took off really quick. Within short time, we were doing five to eight units a month and then it came time that we were really looking at scaling this and turning it into a full factory deal and so we ended up upgrading to a custom home builder as our builder and manufacturer. Their name is Roderick Home Builder and they're amazing.
They do like $20 to $30 million homes and they had interest in the project and so they got involved. And now we've got crews just building each of these units out and the offering has progressed because at first we started out with the 212 and that was kind of our go-to size and then it evolved to adding in the NP1 where people wanted it all enclosed and then we found out that there were a lot of space limitations on where these were going and so that's when the Nook got added to the product mix.
Prefab Review
Got it. Interesting. So is the builder you're working with, were they a traditional modular builder? Because these are built in a factory, right?
New Primitive
Yeah. So they were also building tiny homes. It was Wheelhouse.
Prefab Review
In Salt Lake or Jackson Hole? I think they have couple of locations?
New Primitive
Yeah, Salt Lake was where they were. So they had a lot of success with Wheelhouse and obviously, with outdoor or with these ADU type modular buildings, there's a lot of permitting that is required. And for saunas, you just don't have that. It's pretty plug-and-play.
Prefab Review
Makes total sense. Cool. And then again, I stay at a hotel with a sauna, I go skiing or something and I enjoy it, but I don't have any expertise in this. What separates a well-made sauna from a not-well-made sauna? Are there specific sort of, you know, for the sauna dorks or the sort of aspiring sauna dorks, what should they be looking for? And same with cold plunges.
New Primitive
I think number one is heat, like the experience inside. If the sauna is struggling, there's a lot of kits and lower-end saunas out there that are going to struggle to get to 175 degrees. And at that point, you're kind of feeling like you're in a lukewarm sauna and there's nothing worse than that. So one thing I think you're looking for is a well-insulated sauna. And any kit is going to have less insulation. It's just a trade-off with the way that you construct them.
Prefab Review
What are yours? Are you like R30? What are you insulating?
New Primitive
Yeah, R30. And then we have a vapor barrier. And then we have another sheet on the outside, then our exterior cladding. So everything's sealed up really tightly. Our doors are sealed up very tight. So you're not going to let air out.
Another thing about saunas that you wouldn't really guess is like a lot of people, I think upon first thought of a sauna, they're like, oh, it's just a hot box, right? It's just about sticking some warm heater inside it and it's good to go. But when you're putting a structure like this outside and it's in the harsh elements, there's a lot of expansion and contraction that goes on.
And so if you don't invest in a high-quality sauna, there will be cracks and crevices that pop up around the sauna that release air. And so that's one thing I think you're looking for is just you have to have someone that knows the skillset of building a sauna because you have to leave gaps for that expansion and contraction and have the insulation and all that to build them.
Prefab Review
That makes sense. So what scale are you at now? You got to like five to eight saunas a month pretty quickly. Are you sort of still there? Have you expanded beyond that?
New Primitive
Right now we're doing about 25 batches of 25 per quarter.
Prefab Review
Sorry, you're doing 25 batches of 25 per quarter?
New Primitive
No, sorry, sorry. For our batches, we're doing batches of 25.
Prefab Review
Okay, and you're doing that once per quarter?
New Primitive
Yeah.
Prefab Review
Okay, so you're doing like eight a month. That's awesome. And then what about cold plunges? Do you guys make your own cold plunges or do you work with a third party that makes cold plunges? How does that work?
New Primitive
Yeah, initially when we started out, we were collaborating with another partner for our cold plunge, but as of recently, we build our own. We learned a lot. Saunas and cold plunges were new and there was a lot of excitement around it. There was a lot of kinks that I didn't love about the cold plunge systems that were out there.
They were just hard to drain, hard to keep clean. There's a lot of maintenance that still went with them. And I think that's why a consumer is investing in a cold plunge like these is so that they don't have to deal with all the maintenance.
Prefab Review
Right, because it's less work than putting a bunch of ice in your bathtub, right?
New Primitive
Yeah, and you don't have to bring out an ax and like be chopping the ice. Our cold plunge is designed to be more like a hot tub and it can be hot or cold. So it has that dual function. But yeah, we build our own now.
Prefab Review
Cool, that's super interesting. And then obviously it sounds like this has been kind of an evolution, right? Like you sort of started with something smaller, you've gotten bigger and that's awesome.
Is there like, as you sort of think, like when you say like relaxation pod, I don't know what the other things are, whether it's steam room or, you know, I can come up with other like kind of bad ideas in my head. As somebody who thinks about this a lot, are there sort of next steps and next evolutions beyond where you're at now?
New Primitive
Yeah, for sure. I think this is where rubber meets the road. Sauna is how we're really telling the, we're creating vigilantes through the sauna and cold plunge experience and finding people that align with what, with the experience and message. After that, I think it expands into doing micro sites, like outdoor thermal bathing experiences out in nature. And then I'm really passionate about creating community and bringing people together around this.
And so that's something I wanna build in the future. And then the tiny home wellness retreats. I would really love to be able to build the spaces for corporate groups and people to bring out people they care about and work with to these experiences.
So it could be this kind of whole ecosystem of wellness where you can have a subscription model to our experience. You can come out and stay at our stays for like the ultimate new primitive experience. And then we could, if you like it, then we have these models that you can take home and put at your house.
Prefab Review
Right, right, right. I feel like that happened with exercise bikes for a while. People started using them in studios and then everyone got them at home too.
That makes total sense. So we've learned a lot about your product. This is available everywhere in the US, right?
We have what's called a sort of a fire round, where on our site, I think we get like, I don't know, 50 or 100 questions a day, and we have a very small segment of our readership that is interested in learning about saunas and cold plunges. So is it cool if I fire a few at you? And you can say pass to anything you don't want to answer, but nothing too hard.
guess question number one is, we do get a lot of people putting stuff in their own homes, but we also get a lot of our readers aren't interested. And to your point, like I have a set of tiny homes where I have an Airbnb. Have you looked at all about, and one of the questions we always ask is, or get asked that we don't always have answers to is, what is the positive effect of this on like ADR, like average daily rate? Or basically like the economics of this sort of mini business I have?
You know, we've actually, we've dove into this a bit on the hot tub side. And what we've seen is quite positive in ski towns and other towns. Have you looked at that or have people looked at that for these as well?
New Primitive
Yeah, we've worked with a few Airbnbs . So this is called South Fork Springs. It's a Airbnb in Idaho and it sits on these 40 foot cliffs.
They have hot springs, a sauna, our sauna. And we use these guys as a case study. And what we've seen with Airbnbs we've worked with, that there's about a $45 per night increase for the Airbnbs we've worked with for their average nightly rate. And then their occupancy was also, because they ranked higher on SEO and on Airbnb platforms, they also saw an increase in average occupancy rates.
Prefab Review
Cool, that's awesome. So, okay, so let's just say there was zero increase in occupancy and whatever it is, like, I don't know, 20 nights a month. You might actually be like increasing your gross revenue by a thousand bucks.
How much power do these end up using? Does this end up being like a major consumer?
New Primitive
I would say they're paying, it really depends on how often you use it, and that definitely ranges, but I would say on average, probably spending a hundred bucks in utilities.
Prefab Review
Monthly?
New Primitive
Monthly. And that's with a sauna and a cold plunge. And if you just look at it in the eyes of the consumer, like when they're going out to these retreats or to get away, right?
To get away, this is something that draws them because it makes them feel comfortable. It makes them feel like it's part of this whole experience outdoors where the sauna is outside. It's away from the home.
They're in nature. It gives people that disconnection and allows people just to kind of, yeah, I think it enhances the experience.
Prefab Review
Makes sense. When we rent ski houses, I feel like we don't even look at places without hot tubs. So maybe this is the next amenity. Makes total sense. Okay. So I guess the question on that site that you just pulled up, if you want to pull it back up, was that site built? How did you get that to that point? Or just a crane?
New Primitive
No, it was, we were actually able to forklift this one into place.
Prefab Review
Okay. I mean, it's always hard to tell on these photos, but is that super far from the road? It looks like it's pretty far from a road.
New Primitive
It's actually really central.
Prefab Review
I see. It makes it look from that photo, like you're pretty far into nature, which is cool.
Okay, cool. One of the questions we also had, which I guess is actually really similar, is have you dealt with access issues before?
It's one of the issues we have on doing modular homes sometimes on these sites. Has that been a thing that you've had to deal with in kind of these sort of more remote relaxation settings? Or is it just big cranes can kind of get to a lot of places?
New Primitive
Yeah, I think what I've learned and that's probably been the biggest learning experience of growing this business is the installation and logistics aspect. And I would say at first there's, well, there's always a big enough crane. It's just how much you're willing to pay.
But to give you some parameters, I would say shoot to have the sauna within a hundred feet of where a crane can park. And no obstructions as far as like power lines and trees. And basically if you can do that and there's a flat place, a leveled surface for the crane to park, we can typically get these into place.
And that's when I told you our growth, like we were doing five to eight, like we were saying at the beginning, our first year. Why I think I've stayed at eight saunas a month is just because I've tightened down a lot more on the site qualification.
Prefab Review
Right.
New Primitive
Just making sure that everything is going to be smooth and efficient and that we can get it in there safely.
Prefab Review
One of the things that we've seen is like, you know, increasing amounts of, I would say you talked about tiny homes, but basically things that like wheelhouse is a good example. Maybe not meant to be moved frequently, but are actually on a chassis and could be moved.
Is there a version of yours, that actually, especially if you think about kind of like this retreat aspect where it's like a temporary or sort of like a month or two pop-up. Is there a version of your home that works in like that kind of scenario where you're on a bed or does it really need more of a permanent foundation?
New Primitive
It doesn't need a permanent foundation. It's really flexible as far as the foundation goes. You can do a gravel base with just a few inch pavers that keep it propped up.
You could do a cement pad. It just has to be leveled and solid to that it's not going to sink down into the soil. But other than that, they are removable structures. You could take them out just as you put them in.
Prefab Review
You mentioned a little bit about Wi-Fi. The last question we had here was how's technology affecting this space? Like we see a lot of technology affecting a lot of home building at this point. How do you all think about that?
New Primitive
So technology, as far as just being able to control it with your phone?
Prefab Review
It could be that. It could be building practices. Are there certain ways where you're like, “oh, right, you know, beyond the Wi-Fi, that this is sort of touching the space in a way that wasn't done, you know, five or 10 years ago?”
New Primitive
I would say the vision that I see for technology, I mean, as far as in the modular building world, there is some cool technology with steel framing that's really cool to learn about. But as far as technology goes, I would say this, at least for us, what we're seeing more and more interest from the outside is for like a meditation assistant on the inside. Saunas basically stimulate your five senses. And so you're getting people into a very relaxed, meditative state. And there's not a lot of places that you can, that you have intentional meditation.
And so this, I think, could be a really powerful tool for people to get in and be able to like, this is where you discover you. You have your creative thoughts, you have your inspiration of what is going to bring you fulfillment or is going to be important to you in the project that you're doing. And so having a journaling feature inside that you could say, hey, this is what I'm thinking.
Prefab Review
Yeah, that makes total sense. I was thinking through the sort of next steps there. You can totally imagine, right? The sort of personalized aspect of this, whether it's journaling it, right? Whether it's like giving you your mantra, whether it's like, okay, this is your temperature and this is how much time you stay, which is different from your wife, husband, friend.
New Primitive
Exactly. You could liknk it with your biometrics, like your Garmin. And it coul dsay, “hey, you’re looking depleted today.” And it could take you through this breathwork exercise, this temperature, rotate through sauna dna cold plunge in this order. And then you could have a journaling feature after that is like, “how do you feel?”
Prefab Review
This is a quick fire question that I should have asked before. What’s the amount fo time people spend in these? 5 minutes in the cold plung, 15 minutes in the sauna?
New Primitive
So the researchers that we follow, like Dr. Andrew Huberman or Dr. Susana Somberg and what they recommend is from anywhere from 175 to 212 degrees, they do say just 57 cumulative minutes a week. But, if you’re going in there for one time, they recommend 15 to 20 minutes.
And I think if you’re listening to this and you’re trying sauna, you’re looking for that uncomfortable feeling that you get around 15 minutes, where your mind or body is telling you to get out. I always recommend people stay 5 minutes longer once they feel that.
Prefab Review
Got it. That makes sense. Well I really appreciate the time, Cole. The question we ask everyone who is on our podcast is, “what are you most excited about regarding your company or industry for the near future?”
New Primitive
That’s a good question. I’m really excited to bring this to the U.S. I’m excited to see it get adopted into our culture. And I hope it flourishes here. But I’m really excited to create these thermal bathing experiences out in nature. I think that’s what really gets me excited - being able to host people at a really cool space. Similiar to this cabin, where I could add in sauna or cold plunge, or infared, or salt rooms. I want to create this whole experience around thermal bathing. And I think that’s what gets me really excited.
Prefab Review
Awesome. Thank you for your time. For everyone listening, if you want to learn more about New Primitive, newprimitive.io is their website. As always, you can find out about them and many other interesting companies at prefabreview.com. Cole, thanks again.
New Primitive
Thank you, Michael. Thanks for having me.